Alternatively titled:
Admit it – you’re a Welsh speaker!
How many Welsh speakers are there in Wales? This year’s Census will try to find out, but if you don’t answer accurately, we still won’t know even when the figures are in!
A comment on the SaySomethinginWelsh forum (reproduced below) seems to show that lots of Welsh learners don’t consider their Welsh to be good enough to tick the “I speak Welsh” box in the Census. Come on people! Your collective ticks will decide Welsh language policy for the next 10 years, so make sure you tell the truth!
You speak Welsh if you are able to put useful sentences together. These may be about your opinion, your wants and needs, your everyday life. Does that sound complicated? Well it’s not really. If you can make up sentences like “I like speaking Welsh”, or “I’m trying to go”, then you are able to speak Welsh (and anyone who has completed lesson one of SaySomethinginWelsh is able to do just that!). The trick is in the “making up” bit. If you have learnt some sentences off by heart – “I like coffee” (dwi’n hoffi coffi) is one of the favourites – and can say “bore da” and “diolch” then you are not really speaking Welsh, you are repeating phrases, just as if you were singing “Sosban Fach” or “Hen Wlad fy Nhadau”. You can’t really use your Welsh except in a very few pre-set situations.
On the other hand, if you know how to change “Dwi’n hoffi coffi” into a negative, and talk about something other than coffee, or add a bit about milk and sugar, then you are speaking Welsh. You must admit it on the census form – it is a criminal offence not to.
“But I can’t take part in conversations!” say some. I hate to disagree, but you can. What you are concerned about is that conversations easily get too complicated for you to keep up. There are two things at work here. One is that you don’t have all the vocabulary you need yet and the other is that your brain isn’t up to speed with listening and understanding. (The Say Something in Welsh listening practices are designed to overcome this. Click here to find out more).
When people discuss things in English that you don’t understand, I doubt that you’ve ever considered that you “don’t really speak English”. Accept that you need to build your vocabulary, but don’t ever think that you “can’t speak Welsh” just because you don’t understand everything!
Anyway, lecture over – here is the original comment and answer that inspired this post:
Question:
“We had a very interesting piece of post this morning – turned out to be the census form (which is exciting in its own way I suppose 
). Had a browse through and came across the “do you speak/undertand spoken/read/write welsh” section. I was wondering what I should tick here. I can understand some welsh – enough to get the gist of some conversationsand i’m fine with common phrases, and a little less written welsh, but I couldnt follow an entire conversation. I dont really know if its enough to count as understanding, but then I do have more welsh than the average British citizan, and if I dont tick it thats another learner not counted. By ticking one or two of the boxes would we come across as learners and raise our profile? (and maybe get some nice resources 
)
I feel like I should tick something because I do know some welsh and would like more support/resources for the language (which I cant see happening without lots of people being seen to use it) but it does feel like a stretch to put myself in any of those boxes…
The writing is a nono. The other three I am wavering on. Anybody mind sharing their ideas/opinions/
This is a question that will excercise the minds of a lot of people who lack confidence / breadth / experience, so here are my thoughts, again quoted directly from the forum:
Elmo – I can see your dilemma. To tick “none of the above” would be a lie, which is an offence, so it must be that the Census creators have intended that any understanding / speaking /reading / writing is counted.
According to the census help page,
“It is up to you to judge your own ability in Welsh”. (Another 
I think)
I would say that if you can follow the gist of a conversation then you fairly much understand spoken Welsh. Many “from-birth”, everyday speakers don’t understand Welsh spoken by academics or people from certain other areas, so not being able to understand all Welsh is common.
Speaking Welsh – if you are following the SaySomethinginWelsh course, then you do that on a regular basis, and will be increasing your capability every time you do a lessons / practice session or attend an SSiW meet up. No question, that’s a tick.
Reading Welsh – again, a lot of people have a difficulty in reading complex Welsh, but technically, you could tick this if you know what “gwasanaethau” means on the motorway, or know how to find your “ffordd allan” by following signs. Of course, you may choose to read it as “could you read a novel”, but again, many from birth speakers couldn’t do that. I’d probably go somewhere in between – if you can read blogs or even text messages in Welsh, then you can read.
Writing Welsh – that’s simple, if you can’t, don’t tick it!
According to the Help pages again,
“In Wales this information helps public bodies to understand the extent to which the Welsh language is used and, therefore, to meet their statutory duties under the Welsh Language Act 1993. It is also used for policy development and monitoring, and provides data for the allocation of grants to support the Welsh language.“
So: If you put yourself as a Welsh speaker, then your local council will have to provide more services in Welsh, and the language should, theoretically, be treated more seriously. Conversely, of course, if people who are unable to speak Welsh start putting themselves down as Welsh-speaking, then we could get a distorted view of the health of the language. In the case of someone learning with SSiW, I think that the “distortion” danger is not a problem, because even for those who have just started lesson 1, there are things that they can say in Welsh, and their Welsh is going to increase in leaps and bounds over the coming months, so anyone who has started the SSiW course should definitely tick that they are Welsh speaking. The rest are up to you!
*****************
Some interesting links:
- What effect would a real “Spoken Welsh” course have on your ability to speak Welsh?
- How to learn with SaySomethinginWelsh
- Ask yourself – are you a category 3 Welsh speaker…?
I brought this up in two of my dosbarths this week, and was surprised to hear that even 4th year students, who were discussing this quite technical matter with me, yn y Gymraeg, weren’t intending to tick even the “Can understand spoken Welsh” box.
I think it’s important that dysgwyr realise that they’re also siaradwyr.
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I’ve only just started learning spoken Welsh, but I will be ticking the box about understanding and speaking Welsh, because, well, I do understand a bit, and by the end of the year will be able to speak and read a fair bit as well, even though I am English born and bred, and live in England at the moment.
P.S. The wife and I will be looking to move to Wales next year, so I’m happy to be ticking all relevent boxes, as it’s true, or soon will be.
Since the purpose is to “understand the extent to which the Welsh language is used” in Wales (in England only those who claim Welsh as their main language will be counted), I would say that the intention is to count anyone who uses Welsh at all (even if only in class).
But it won’t be possible to use this information, by itself, for policy development, since it doesn’t distinguish between degrees of fluency, except in so far as people don’t tick all boxes (but I doubt if every native speaker will either); it would have been more useful (and clearer to learners) if a level of competence question had been included as well, as has been done for English.
You make a good point, Philip – the question could definitely be improved with a bit more detail. I guess that there will be a certain number of learner “Tells”, for instance someone who speaks but doesn’t understand is a learner, most people who speak but don’t write will be from-birth speakers, although the Say Something in Welsh course is muddying those waters now!
I think the Census generally is a blunt weapon, though, that gives “overall” statistics that allow a better planning of what detailed infromation is needed. So the more people who can genuinely tick the “Speaks Welsh” box the better, leading to better investigation into use of Welsh will be, and more notice being taken of Welsh speakers, whatever their level and speaking history.
I am against the census so will be holding out against completing it but, if I am forced to, I will complete the Welsh one – which is easy to do just by comparing it against the English one if you get stuck! Dw i’n dysgu Cymraeg a dw i’n siarad tipyn bach o Gymraeg bob dydd efo fy nghariad! So why not, it’ll raise the profile of the Welsh language, you’ll learn a bit at the same time and – if you feel like being a bit rebellious – you can skew the figures a bit in favour of Wales and create some more work for the census authorities who probably haven’t employed enough Welsh-speakers (or are they? LOL!) to process the sheer volume of forms they would get in Welsh. Pob lwc i bawb!
I was wavering on what to tick on this question, but given the fact I read a Welsh tweet, understood it and came here, it’s actually pretty obvious. I learnt Welsh, lack confidence to even attempt speaking it now, but I can honestly say I can read it and understand it spoken (to a degree).
Yay.
Da iawn ti, Steve, a Llongyfarchiadau!
If you can read and understand, there’s plenty of written material on the internet to keep you learning new Welsh all the time. Do you get much chance to listen and speak as well? Good to hear that there’ll be another tick (or four) – it’s surprising how many people worry about whether to tick or not when, as you’ve found, they understand / read / speak well enough to use their Welsh in everyday situations. What more could you want from a language after all!
Remember that if you would like to brush up on spekaing skills, working throught the free SSiW spoken Welsh course here will do you the world of good!
Thanks for your comment, and congratulations again.
Iestyn
I had already ticked the boxes for read, write and speak Welsh before I’d even seen this article
As far as I’m concerned, especially as someone who continues to learn Welsh and continues to practice, I don’t care that I’m not fluent – as far as I’m concerned I AM a Welsh speaker even if I’m not particularly good yet ! Quite frankly, hearing some people speak English these days, I wonder by what yardstick we judge fluency anyway ! 
Pob lwc !
Glyn – that is a very sensible attitude: Even if you’re not as ‘fluent’ in Welsh as you are in English, that’s no yardstick as to whether you “speak Welsh” or not. The problem is, of course, that most Welsh-speakers rely on English to fill in sometimes, maybe because a certain English construction is better than what’s available in Welsh, or because the English pattern or word is uppermost in the mind, because it’s heard more often than the Welsh. Anyone who is used to being bilingual accepts this as part of life, but for those not yet used to having two languages, it can feel like failure.
But, the question isn’t even about being “fluent” it’s just about Speaking Welsh, so anyone who can speak some Welsh should tick “yes”!
Thank you for your comment, and for learning Welsh!
Iestyn
PS – that’s an amazing photo of the sunshine in “Welsh Tuscany” on your blog. If you fancy putting a photo up on the forum for inclusion in the “Photos of Wales” section of our email, feel free! Make sure that you note the your a professional photographer, and we’ll put contact details on your photo
What about Welsh Speakers who live in Cheshire, Shropshire etc? There is no option on the form or online for us to say that we speak Welsh!
Shw mae, David? You’re right about the options for registering that you speak Welsh in England are limited. It’s strange, because UNESCO count Welsh as a critically endangered indigenous language in England (which basically means in the Oswestry area of Shropshire where it is truly indigenous rather than the “re-introduced” language of migrants).
There is an option for some Welsh speakers (but mostly not for recent learners, unfortunately). Question 18 asks about your “main” language, and defines “Main Language” as “your first or preferred language. It could be the language you were brought up using, the one you feel most comfortable using, the language you use at home, or the one you use most often.”
So someone brought up speaking Welsh or who speaks mainly Welsh at home can claim Welsh as their main language, though it’s unlikely that many people living in England could genuinely claim to be more comfortable with Welsh, or to use Welsh most often – at least unless they are a very recent arrival.
Thanks for your comment – it made me look up the help section for question 18, which I’ve been meaning to do for a while!
Iestyn
Let’s understand that we’re all Welsh learners. Some learned it as a first language on their mother’s knee, others later on in school or college or down the pub with friends. But we’ve all learned it. We can celebrate all that without needing to differentiate and grade it.
A very good point, Marc. We seem to have a bit of a hang-up about “learners” as regards the Welsh language. I’ve never heard anyone say of a swcond language English speaker “Oh yes, so-and-so’s a learner”. They either communicate and get understood, or they don’t. It’s probably something to do with having an excuse to fall back on the “easier” option of speaking English with a Welsh “learner”.
We are all learnes, and most of us are still learning. For isntance, I put a post on the SSiW forum the other day with three new words that I’d learnerd over the last 24 hours. Bearing in mind that I’m the tutor, and to all intents and purposes first language, it makes a bit of a nonsense of the “fluent / learner” split.
Iestyn
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hi
i got onto this forum through an e mail circulating through my welsh tutor. As i had already completed most of our census form and could not recall what i had put with regard my Welsh language capabilities i thought i had better check.
I was surprised and pleased to see that I had ticked all four boxes and even though I still have a lot to learn I obviously in my sub-concious consider myself a Welsh speaker. I was really chuffed and even more so if people consider my ticking the boxes will help to show how important the Welsh language is to all of us. Kay
That’s great to hear. Kay – believe your subconscious, because it’s not often wrong! Looks like you are now a Welsh speaker, so you can start ditching the “I’m a learner” badge.
Diolch am y neges. Dwi’n wedi penderfynu eisoes i ticiwch bob un o’r “Cymraeg” blychau.
Bedd bynnag, mae’n galonogol i ddarllen yr holl sylwadau.
Mewn cytundeb – un o’r prin “Gogs”
Da iawn chi, Pete Green – mae’n amlwg bod eich Cymraeg chi yn dda iawn, ac efallai bod mwy o hyder gyda chi na rhai. Mae’n galonogol (encouraging) i wybod bod gymaint o bobl yn ddigon hyderus am eu gallu Cymraeg, ond mae llawer o bobl sydd ddim. Mae dysgwyr SaySomethinginWelsh yn hyderus iawn eu Cymraeg lafar, achos does dim ysgrifennu o gwbl ar y cwrs, ond mae dysgwyr ar gyrsiau eraill yn gallu colli mas ar yr hyder i siarad, a thrwy hynny yn colli ar ran pwysicaf yr iaith!
As a Welsh speaker living in England I don’t get a chance to fill anything in about this on the census form. Question 17 on the census form is an empty space saying – 17 This question is intentionally left blank > Go to 18.
Hi John – You are right baout that unless you were brought up speaking Welsh, or Welsh is your main language at home. In those cases (or if you are more comfortable using Welsh or Welsh is the language you use most often) you can claim Welsh as your main language in question 18. That’s not an option for us in Wales, as we have to tick that “Welsh or English is our main language”. It’s also unlikely to be an option if you are an adult learner, unless you’ve really embraced the language to the poitn where you use it at home all the time!
Pan roeddwn i 16 oed, mi dioddefais i damwain-mae plat plastig yn fy mhen-mi anghofais i pob iaithiau-Saesneg,Cymraeg a Ffranceg, Pob fy fyw roeddwn i’n ceisio dysgu Cymraeg eto,achos roeddwn i’n clywed Saesneg pob dydd,ond dim CYMRAEG. Dw’i'n balch sgwennu y nodyn bach yma i ddweud dw’i'n balch defnyddio fy iaith eto, a dwi ddim yn poeni am y camgameriadau-mewn amser fydden nhw dod reit. Os mae problemau yn ddysgu Cymraeg,paid atal.
Rwyt ti Cymro neu Cymraes,bod balch i de3ffnyddion yr iaith pwysig, GADEWCH POBL GWYBOD YNA.; Paul Parry
Llongyfarchiadau, Paul Parry. Mae’n anodd dysgu ail iaith, felly rydych chi wedi gweithio’n galed iawn i ail-ddysgu Saesneg a Chymraeg. Yn sicr, bydd eich Cymraeg yn gwella wrth i chi’i defnyddio. Mae ‘Nghymraeg i’n gwella o hyd hefyd, a Chymraeg pob Cymro arall sy’n ei defnyddio o hyd.
I am a learner of the Welsh language and I certainly didn’t like a question which made no attempt to explore the level of competence I had reached! I think this information should be seen to be important. When I rang the help line I had decided that to state I had completed a ‘Canolradd’ exam probably wouldn’t mean anything, therefore I used the term ‘GCSE’. Unfortunately this met with the response that I should not consider myself to be a Welsh speaker! I came off the phone feeling annoyed that the person at the other end didn’t really understand what I had told her.
Thanks for your comment, Trevor. What you say is actually quite serious – if you have completed the Canolradd exam, then you have plenty of Welsh for everyday use, and should definitely class yourself as a Welsh speaker. If you have been specifically told by the Census helpline to say that you are not Welsh speaking, that really shows how much of a problem there is with this particular question. I can see why you were annoyed, and hope you ignored their advice!
It’s a shame that they didn’t give some option for Welsh speakers in England. I understand that the purpose is about whether they should be providing government services etc in Welsh but it would have been a good way to determine how many Welsh speakers there are in the UK as a whole.
any type of learner is a wlesh speaker to me, i am fluent have spoken welsh all my life and do only speak welsh for days until i see an Englsih friend/relative,despite ths i’m still learning, currently at university studying my degree completely through welsh and have taken up “gloywi iaith” sessions to improve my grammar (i’ve always spoken very informally!), my father was born in England and by marrying a welsh woman and having welsh mediun secondary education, speaks and understands welsh but will not use it at all! i ticked his “speaks welsh” box for him because he wouldn’t have otherwise and that would be lying
Diolch yn fawr am y sylw ‘na. From the pen (or keyboard) of a native Welsh speaker who has nothing to do with teaching Welsh or boosting learners’ confidence comes the most important message that any “learner” can take on board. We are all learners here, from the newbie with one or two words, to the native Welsh speaker with a degree in Welsh. There is always more to learn, and to kid yourself otherwise is, well, to kid yourself!
But this can cut both ways. People sometimes exaggerate their linguistic skills on the census, just as they often exaggerate their church attendance and other things. Just as there may be people with a right to check that box who aren’t, there may be some who can’t put a sentence together but checked it out of personal pride.
You’re right, Morgan. One of the (many) problems with our statistics for Wlelsh speaking ability and practice amongst the general population is that no-one is quite sure what is being measured. If I was unkind, I would accuse the ONS, or rather those who advise the ONS, of deliberately seaking statistics that could mean anything that they need them to mean, for instance the increas in Welsh ability shown in the last census was trumpeted as a great success, even though it was obvious to most that some of the statistics could never mean what they were being interpreted to mean.
You’re right that there are some who say they can speak Welsh because they feel they ought to – and if anyone knows anyone who;s done that, make sure you let them know about SaySomethigninWelsh.com!